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  • Re: Manifold Pressure Values?????

    by » 8 years ago


    Trying to add the attachments...

    Regards
    912_performance_2017-01-04.jpg (You do not have access to download this file.)
    performancedata_2017-01-04.jpg (You do not have access to download this file.)

  • Re: Manifold Pressure Values?????

    by » 8 years ago


    Hi Gilles,
    some comments below.

    1) You are probably correct in that the majority of IS engines may be fixed pitch. Only Rotax will know for sure. Where I live I have seen seven IS installations all Variable pitch.

    2) Michael Stock worked with Rotax and Rockwell Collins extensively developing the ECU and the IS engine he is definitely an expert, good to chat to and close to where you live (compared to me !)

    3) Thanks for the reasons you want this data I think that helps my thoughts. The info needed is different if you are developing an engine, or engine prop or just want to fly.

    Back long ago when the constant speed prop was developed Pilots needed a simple way of "setting power" the easiest thing was to use MAP. Map is not accurate, it can be out by up to 7% depending on the day and the biggest factor MAP does not take into account is air inlet temperature. But a Pilot does not really need to know 75% power, or 72, or 78 but just two of three settings that can be used that are "close enough".

    Fortunately and it appears Unfortunately now we have an engine controlled by an ECU we can have far more accurate , but not totally accurate data.

    To work well the ECU takes many parameters, MAP, inlet temps, TPS, engine temp, EGT, and more and does calculations and then corrections to calculate the correct stochiometric fuel at below 97% throttle. Therefore measuring Power in an IS engine is more accurately done on fuel flow.

    Unfortunately it appears that "old habits die hard" and inspite of better data Pilots seem to want a simple table with five settings...even though it is very debatable whether this is a good idea.

    I do not know why Rotax has not provided this, but If I was a Rotax engine developer I would probably not either...why restrict the customers to five settings when now they can do what they want...we do not do that for cars ??

    Having said all that it seems that the niceties of the ECU and its impressive features are too much for many Pilots to get their heads around.

    Therefore I have created a "simple MAP table" for my friends with IS engines whom were trained on the old technology and do not want to change. It is NOT official Rotax data but you did say you wanted a "ball park". All the settings I believe meet the restrictions in the 912 IS Sport Operators manual. The first table is based on the Operators manual only and the MAP settings are calculated from the Density altitude (fig 3) and the performance graph for non standard conditions.

    The second table is based on similar calculations and flight testing in my air frame.

    I hope this is useful for you but I reiterate I cannot guarantee the accuracy or safety, if you are developing a serial production air frame I suggest you contact Micheal or Rotax and see them directly, it is not too far from Grenoble !

    I will attach the tables in another reply

    Regards

    Glenn
    912ISSportPerformance.jpg (You do not have access to download this file.)

  • Re: Manifold Pressure Values?????

    by » 8 years ago


    The DA20i pilots manual claims to be based on official Rotax data and provides the following values

    75% power -5000 - 16.5 l/h manifold pressures are set with reference to temp and altitude

    65% - 4800 rpm - 13.7. l/h

    55% - 4300 rpm - 11.1 l/h

    Their value for full power is 26.1 l/h (WOT)

    If I had known that finding information on this engine, especially on its systems, installation, operation and limitations was going to be such a chore, I would never have bought the engine for the simple reason that obscuring the operating principles of its multiple systems leaves me with no option but to PRESUME Rotax has designed a safe system, with no way of knowing if this presumption is warranted.

    For example, we know the engine is fitted with a knock sensor, EGT probes, variable ignition timing, multiple injectors, etc., etc. but there is no description of how these features interact.

    So what is the engine response going to be when it is provided with fuel of inferior quality (e.g. below 95 octane)? What will the engine response be to a variety of other conditions? We do not know.

    People say "just run it" implying there are no operating limitations apart from the 5800 rpm time limit. I would like to see that in writing from Rotax.

    Using a constant speed propeller, I could probably set full power (WOT) down to 4000 rpm I am fairly sure that doing this will break the engine. There are probably a lot other things that will break the engine however Rotax won't tell us what they are, they just give us a not very well written manual telling us what appears to work, but not telling us what will happen if various errors occur.

    I am always in favour of new technology, but not if the designers won't tell us in detail how it is all expected to work. Just ask yourself about the failures of modern automobile electronics, do you want to be at 5000 ft over an ocean when the ECU does the equivalent of locking your keys in the car?

    "Old technology" like a MAP gauge and a table of values may indeed not be required these days however I don't sneer at those who want it. I am continually amazed at how people forget that aircraft and power plant design is based on the blood of thousands or people who died in the learning of the rules that govern flight.

    But maybe that is just me. I am an engineer and I spent six years in an airline engineering division and later in an aerospace company, so maybe I am too conservative.

  • Re: Manifold Pressure Values?????

    by » 8 years ago




    I have created a "simple MAP table" for my friends with IS engines whom were trained on the old technology and do not want to change. It is NOT official Rotax data but you did say you wanted a "ball park". All the settings I believe meet the restrictions in the 912 IS Sport Operators manual. The first table is based on the Operators manual only and the MAP settings are calculated from the Density altitude (fig 3) and the performance graph for non standard conditions.

    The second table is based on similar calculations and flight testing in my air frame.

    I hope this is useful for you but I reiterate I cannot guarantee the accuracy or safety, if you are developing a serial production air frame I suggest you contact Micheal or Rotax and see them directly, it is not too far from Grenoble !

    I will attach the tables in another reply

    Regards

    Glenn


    Glenn,

    Thank you for the tables.
    Any info on the 912iS is most appreciated.

    I'am afraid that getting clear and direct info from Rotax is going to be very difficult. It is sure that the undisclosed engine parameters are known by M.Stock, but since those are his "stock-in-trade", not sure he'll be willing to share them with the public.

    Please consider that I'm not trying to discuss any issues here on the forum, rather I'm kind of thinking aloud about the idiosyncrasies of this peculiar engine.
    Not really sure the fuel flow is a univocal indication of the power delivered by the engine.

    At the moment, I have the feeling that fuel-flow is a *consequence* of any power setting, and not a primary parameter to operate the engine.
    Contrary to a diesel or turbine engine, the throttle lever is connected to throttle valves so the primary parameter you act upon is manifold pressure, with fuel flow being adjusted according to temperatures, pressures, rpm, etc. (be it electronically, mechanically or with carburators).
    Nothing new or revolutionary here.
    More or less similar to piloting pitch attitude in cruise, with the airspeed being the consequence.
    No "old habits" here, just sound basic pilot's or engine operator's technique.

    In a new aircraft, it is most important to know as precisely as possible the power delivered, in order to measure performances.

    I'll second Geoffrey with the feeling that we really lack crucial informations for engine integration, so any input will be much appreciated.
    Please keep up sharing info and opinions !

    Thank you,
    Best regards,
    Gilles

  • Re: Manifold Pressure Values?????

    by » 8 years ago


    Gilles, Glenn Martin made the excellent observation that if we are running in "Eco" mode - which I think (but Rotax doesn't specify) is lean-of peak operation, then fuel flow, not manifold pressure controls power.

    So in this engine when in Eco mode, we adjust manifold pressure and the ECU adjusts fuel flow to keep EGT at Fifty degrees lean of peak EGT or whatever exhaust gas temperature the ECU is programmed for, and that action sets power.

    I say "I think" because I don't know and Rotax isn't telling me that Eco mode is lean of peak EGT operation.

    This also reminds me that there may be another failure mode for this engine that Rotax hints at, but does not specify, which could be dangerous with a constant speed propeller which raises a new question.

    That would be if we have a dual lane ECU failure and the ECU is in "get you home" mode. Rotax states ( but does not explain) that "Differences arise only in the efficiency of the engine." (page 4-2). By that I think it may mean that the engine is operating full rich mixture, maybe with no knock sensor protection or variable ignition timing?

    If this were true then the engine may be running the same as a carburettor 912 engine and then the manifold pressure and rpm settings for that carburetted engine with constant speed propeller would perhaps be appropriate.

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