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I know this has been kicked around here, and elsewhere, before, and have read most of those older posts.
Some reputable and knowledgable folks say that (assuming you have the cash available) it makes sense to sell your old engine while it`s good and running, and buy new.
Depending on which of those folks you read some recommend doing that as low as 600 hours, some at about 1000, etc.

Our 912UL has perfect compression, runs clean plugs, idles and runs smoothly with full power, and on oil changes barely detectable metal on magnet or on dissecting filters. All factory recommended notices complied with (there was once expesive one a while back.)
Every reason to imagine it has a lot of life left in it.
And ours is on an experimental LSA so we are not compelled by regs or other agreements or expectations to overhaul it (and many 912`s have gone to 5000 hours without overhauls.)
So in that sense worth keeping even if we put what from our perspective unexpectedly early preventative big dollars into it.

On the other hand it could be coming up on some expensive service, not so much due to any indications, as routine preventative care at about 600 hours and 10+ years of age:
For example:
Carb rebuilds that will probably run $300?
$3500 full rubber replacement? (per opinions in an other post here)
Gearbox inspection... maybe $300?

So yes, in the long run it might be better to try to sell it while it`s on the plane and demonstrably running well and in good condition. And selling before doing that not required but likely looming work could be thought of as giving us over a $4000 head-start on buying new.

This raises questions that maybe some here could take a crack at:
# A new 912UL is going to cost about $16,000.
About how much should I figure as cost of removing the old one and installing the new one?

# What`s the price range I could reasonably expect to get for my old engine,
given that I stated about it?
Is there a glut of used 1500 OR 2000 hour used Rotax 912 engines out there for sale and depressing used prices because owners of 912`s on non-experimentals are compelled to make their `overhaul vs replace` decision at that point and are putting them on the used engine market?

# Any thoughts on a third alternative: Instead of doing the $4000+ worth of possible preventative maintainance do a reputable full overhaul (which, _if_ I understand right, should be about $11,000)?
Does that sort of overhaul price include removing and replacing engine on aircraft, or is that just the overhauled engine arriving in a crate? If so what`s range of labor to remove and remount on aircraft?

Al
  • Re: Maintain 912UL vs. sell and replace w/ new engine?

    by » 12 years ago


    Hi Al,

    You have hit on two schools of thought and the decision will be yours to which side of the fence you want to fall on. There are lots of owners on both sides of the fence.
    If the proper maint. is done along the way and there are no issues you could expect to get way past 2000 hrs. I have friends that are in the 3000-4000 hr. range without any issues. I tend to think of the Rotax 912 more like a motorcycle engine. You just don't toss those out or rebuild at a
    pre-determined mileage. With only 600 hrs in the years that engine has been around you may get another 10 years out of it. That said any mechanical engine can give up the ghost at any time and prematurely. If you go past any rebuild times then a good detailed maint. program is warranted and no cutting corners.
    If you decide to sell then I tell people to do it around 1500-1800 hrs (for a 2000 hr. TBO) to someone who can't afford a new engine. Your engine is probably a 1500 hr. TBO engine so a sale may be better around 1200 hrs. It's strictly a personal choice and others here may have different ideas./u]. You may get around $4K-$6k depending on the engine condition and hours on the engine at the time of sale. People who keep very good documentation and do all the prescribed maint. along the way tend to command higher prices.
    So let's say you sell your engine for $5K and then have to dump another $11K in for a new 912UL, plus add any labor to do so. So you may have $11K-$13K (depends on who does the work) in a new zero time engine with all the new upgrades from Rotax and if you just rebuilt yours you would still be down $11K and have a high time engine that was just overhauled with many of the old parts and no new upgrades.
    There is a market for used 912's.

    Now you only have 600 hrs. on yours right now. If you do a hose change which I would highly recommend if you have 10 years on that engine (and on borrowed time for hose failure) and you do the work yourself then it is only parts around $800-$1000 depending how detailed you want to be. The gearbox is around $350-$500 depending on what parts and who does the work and the carb rebuild can be around $300-$500 depending on who does the work and which carb rebuild kit you use. These figures will all depend on whether you do all your own work or hire someone to do the labor and their shop rate so these are estimates. That's only $1800 at the higher parts only cost and your labor and $4K or so at the top end if someone does it all for you. Either way that is a lot cheaper than $11K-$12K.

    For flight schools I personally think it makes better sense to sell at the high hour mark.

    Looks like it's time to sit and crunch numbers.
    I still think your engine has a lot of long life in it, but the maint.and TLC that it gets will be a huge determining factor and you know your engine condition and it's maint. record better than anyone to make all these decisions.

    Roger Lee
    LSRM-A & Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
    Tucson, AZ Ryan Airfield (KRYN)
    520-349-7056 Cell


    Thank you said by: Al C

  • Re: Maintain 912UL vs. sell and replace w/ new engine?

    by » 12 years ago


    Thanks Roger for your usual considered and knowledgable reply.

    Yeah, as you say, the sell vs. maintain is a judgment call we'll have to make.
    The good news is that as an experimental we do at least have the option of running a high hour and high age 912 to a possibly reliable ripe old age.

    Two things I didn't add to the info I gave you that indirectly bear on the decision is that although the engine accumulated only 600 hours in 10+ years, the way we (the current two owners) currently and in the forseeable future use it we fly pretty regularly and put on about 150 hours per year.
    And we're easy on the engine with reqular oil changes, very rarely run avgas through it, rarely cruise at more than 5000 rpm, make sure it's properly warm before run-ups, etc.

    As you say, even $4000 in maintainance is a lot less than a full overhaul, let alone the sell-&-replace-with-new strategy.

    Al

  • Re: Maintain 912UL vs. sell and replace w/ new engine?

    by » 10 years ago


    Just coming back to update this old, but recurringly relevant IMO, topic,
    and get one missing piece of information with a question to Roger (or anyone):

    Roger wrote, in part --
    "..... So let's say you sell your engine for $5K and then have to dump another $11K in for a new 912UL, plus add any labor to do so. So you may have $11K-$13K (depends on who does the work) in a new zero time engine with all the new upgrades from Rotax and if you just rebuilt yours you would still be down $11K and have a high time engine that was just overhauled with many of the old parts and no new upgrades.
    There is a market for used 912's."

    I want to revisit those numbers and get one I couldn't see there in the orginal answer, to see if an how they change the balance at all on the "maintain vs. sell and replace" decision.
    (This decision is expecially relevant, and may be different, for those like me with ELSA where we are not even required to do anything in particular at TBO and can potentially run to 3000+ without major work or replacement.)

    Interestingly, the price of a brand new 912UL has not gone up since that 2.5 year old post.
    Even a tad down because of increased strength of the dollar.
    But essentially the out of pocked cost for a new-in-crate 912UL is still about $15K-$16K.


    The missing number for me on the old analysis on replace with a new engine is this:
    What would a qualified LSA mechanic likely end up charging if I show up with my Skyranger ELSA (a lot like a RANS, in case you're not familiar with it) and a crated new 912UL and say "take off the old engine and install this new one?"
    That's got to be a big job, with all the hookups to oil tank, fuel lines, coolant lines, electical, throttle cables, sync the new carbs, etc.

    Roger?

    Anyone?

    Thanks,
    Al

  • Re: Maintain 912UL vs. sell and replace w/ new engine?

    by » 10 years ago


    Hi Ai,

    Each plane has to be a little different due to mountings, hose runs and other parts.
    I did an engine swap on a Flight Design CTSW. It took about two days by myself and not in a hurry. Hoses had to be built and the expansion tank re-arranged. This would be about 16 hrs. at whatever the shop rate would be.

    This said maybe someone is faster and the install easier and maybe it's more difficult and they are slower due to lack of experience with a Rotax.

    I would think 2 days ought to be reasonable for someone that has some Rotax experience.
    If they charged 16 hrs. X $90 per hour = $1440
    If they charged 16 hrs. x $50 per hour = $800

    These numbers could be off because someone may take 3 days or 1.5 days and then you'll have parts.

    I'll go out on a limb here and say budget $1200-$2000 depending on who does the work, parts and its complexity.

    Hopefully Rob, Conrad and Mark will chime in or someone else who has crossed this bridge before.

    Roger Lee
    LSRM-A & Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
    Tucson, AZ Ryan Airfield (KRYN)
    520-349-7056 Cell


    Thank you said by: Al C

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