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  • Re: Thermo-Bob Coolant Thermostat

    by » 10 years ago


    Rob
    As I said every owner has to make his own decision based on his operating practice.
    I fly an autogyro, I'm never higher than 500' and can land within a few yards so any problems I have with the cooling system can be resolved by landing straight away. Also I cruise at low speeds with low power settings so getting the engine up to temperature is my biggest problem especially during winter.

    That being said I agree with you, a thermostat is a another potential failure point and (as I said earlier) they don't fail safe, making their use even more debatable. I probably would not install one in a aeroplane that didn't have the stol possibility of my gyro or if I was flying over water. I'd install a thermostatically controlled flap on the water and oil coolers with a manual overide to force the flap open if necessary. I'd do it on my gyro but it wouldn't solve the problem of oil warm-up time in winter.

    You raise an interesting point about the use of the Laminova/Mocal heat exchanger, how long can a 912/914 run without water?

    Thanks for your input, I always appreciate your comments on the forum
    Mike G

  • Re: Thermo-Bob Coolant Thermostat

    by » 10 years ago


    sounds like you have it under control Mike, certainly a different circumstance with the gyro.
    The engine should run for several hours with no coolant, at low power settings. I have heard of one aircraft that ran for 4+hrs as he had to make it over inhospitable terrain before landing at the nearest airport. I will ask the story-teller for more details...
    In some aircraft such as the Diamond DA20-A1 the engine is running so hot it would not last long without coolant.
    The trick is to not go to full power, like a take off, as this is when the combustion gasses will blow out between the cylinder and now-soft/warped cylinder head; the result being a loss of power and possibly blow-torching hoses. The most common area for this blow-torch effect is in the pushrod tube area.

  • Re: Thermo-Bob Coolant Thermostat

    by » 10 years ago


    A lot to think about! I appreciate the good advice.

    There is a problem I am trying to resolve, or maybe I am making too much of the engine temperatures? With no thermostats, when I start the engine in autumn, not even winter:

    1) I can idle for 10 minutes and the oil temps won’t even move up to 120 while the oil pressure remains around 75 psi. Coolant does begin to come up to 120 during that warmup time. Then, with these readings, I take off. Is that ok?

    2) During flight, the oil and coolant temps might reach 170. During the dead of winter, I expect they are likely to be lower. Is this ok?

    My grass strip does not have electric power. And I don’t really want to go through an elaborate pre-flight heating of the engine with external heaters every time I fly. Am I wrong to not do this?

    My questions are obvious.

    1) Aren’t these low temps both during takeoff and during flight going to have an accumulative negative effect? Or should I just change the oil more often?

    2) For that matter, during extreme cold, does even starting without heating the engine damage it?

    3) Will I be able to tape over the cooler and radiator enough during winter to keep temperatures high enough during flight, and not overheat during normal air temperature fluctuations? Based on the reliability discussion, I am leaning this way.

    Thinking about what you say, I might permanently remove all the thermostats after winter, and leave them off. You’ve all made a very good point about this being an airplane, and what if either thermostat (oil or coolant) fails in a way that bypasses the cooler/radiatior and heat gets out of control, especially with no airport nearby. But I still like the idea of an oil to water heat exchanger in addition to, not in replacement of, the oil cooler, strictly to heat the oil more quickly during warmup, which does not occur during idle even with a thermostat.

    Having already said I lean toward removal of both thermostats, I still want to discuss them. With the Thermo-Bob, coolant temperatures come up nicely to 180 in a 10 minute warmup. It would be really nice to bring the oil temps up as well. The PermaCool does raise inflight temperatures, and seems to do a great job with the new Stant 195 degree in lieu of the factory 170 waxstat, but does not seem to raise oil temps during warmup (too much oil mass, not enough heat, at idle).

    And, oh by the way, I contacted PermaCool to find out which manufacturer waxstat they are using, but they refused to tell me. So I replaced the 170 with a 195 (a Stant I mentioned earlier – but I plan on replacing that Stant with what follows). I looked at all the engineering drawings I could find online and found it is most likely a MotoRad. The 195 degree MotoRad P7200-195 has identical dimensions right down to the casting marks on the bottom of the waxstat. And, in support of the loss of reliability argument, I put the 170 (just removed) and MotoRad 195 in boiling water. The 170 failed! It would not expand at all. But the new 195 worked fine. But this makes me wonder what would happen in flight if the Permacool were letting this much oil bypass the cooler all the time. When did the 170 fail and why did I not notice that inflight. Temps inflight with the 170 had been very low, as expected.

    I still am thinking about reliability overall, while keeping operating temps in mind.

    Thanks,
    Dennis

  • Re: Thermo-Bob Coolant Thermostat

    by » 10 years ago


    I had a pilot with an Aztec with over heating problems. He had the heat exchange. I had him put everything back to a more stock configuration. Over heating disappeared. It's the only heat exchanger I have seen on a Rotax. I would think using only a heat exchanger one temp is dependent on the other and maybe not the best option for separate temp help in case you loose a coolant hose.

    Roger Lee
    LSRM-A & Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
    Tucson, AZ Ryan Airfield (KRYN)
    520-349-7056 Cell


  • Re: Thermo-Bob Coolant Thermostat

    by » 10 years ago


    I've just found out that the thermostat/heat exchanger offered by the French company that I mentioned in an earlier post comes from a German company Silent Hectik (http://www.silent-hektik.com/UL_912_Thermo.htm) that also offer other mods for Rotax engines.

    As I've already said and Roger and Rob have warned "Buyer beware".

    Mike G

    PS Roger, an Aztec with a Rotax??? We can't be thinking about the same Aztec

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